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Possible finds, please help confirm what I think I have found!


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#1 Dream Nugget

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 08:13 AM

Here are some finds I have picked in northern MN. They are all magnetic, some are VERY magnetic. They all are also heavy for there size. If you guys/gals wouldn't mind taking a look I would appreciate any opinions on my newest finds. I threw in one picture of each of the first 4 and links to other angles under them. 5 and 6 are both web-links only.


This one my camera flash makes it look brown but its more black in reality without a flash.
1)
Posted Image
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0832.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0834.jpg
Here is the next one.
2)
Posted Image
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0847.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0849.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0851.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0853.jpg

Here is the next one.
3)
Posted Image
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0857.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0861.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0863.jpg

Here is the next one.
4)
Posted Image
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0868.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0870.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0872.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0877.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0879.jpg

Here is the next.
5)
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0881.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0888.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0892.jpg

Here is a possible meteor wrong, notice the red spotting possible iron-ore
6)
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0893.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0895.jpg
http://i598.photobuc...en/DSC_0898.jpg


Thanks in advance for your time and any replies!

#2 Goldfinger

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:31 AM

Do a streak test on them. Looks like either hematite or magetite which wouldn't be unusual given your location.

http://geology.about...dent/ig/streak/

Steve

#3 Dream Nugget

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:17 PM

Thanks Steve, I forgot to mention all of the first five passed the streak test, that eliminated about 15 meteor-wrongs. I would like to do a specific gravity test next I think.

I would also like to mention my grandpa has witnessed a fall in this area that landed right in the lake in front of him, and also used to pull meteorites out of the 80 acres of farm land. He has told me about ploughing the field and running into large meteorites sitting right next to small impact holes. I have held the witnessed fall it's pretty big and heavy.

#4 Mikestang

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 02:47 PM

Not meteorites, sorry.

A streak test does not yield a pass or fail, just a color.

I am sure you mean a bulk density test, not specific gravity (although the two are similar). I am guessing you will come up with a b.d. about 5.

I'll wager your what your grandpa thought he saw he did not actually see, and what you think is a "witness fall" stone is not a meteorite, either. If you can only see a meteor, it's hundreds of miles away. They enter what is called "dark flight" way up in the atmosphere and are not visible anywhere near the ground.
Everywhere I go I see the same rocks.

#5 Dream Nugget

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 04:09 PM

Mike I find it interesting you can tell that all these rocks are not meteorites for certain by photograph could you explain how? You also are telling me the meteorite my grandpa has isn't one. He saw a splash in the lake and a sizzling stone in the water. He has the stone and it looks like meteorite pictures I have found with no fusion crust.

Streak test leaves color (ussually black or brown) if your stone is a meteor wrong. So no color equals pass. Why would you do the streak test if it didn't have a result pass or fail. It would be a waste of time. I have looked at tons of pictures of hematite and magnetite and have not seen any pictures that match my stones. But I have found meteorite pictures that really look identical. Bulk density test time!

I'll wager that there is no way you can be certain that these are not meteorites by picture. Mike are you having a glass half empty day? Go find a big meteorite and put a smile on your face!

#6 Johnno

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:33 PM

I have to agree with Mike, not a meteorite. It's so easy to be fooled and there's a lot of meteorwrongs out there that have had my head scratching

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#7 Dream Nugget

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 06:16 PM

Ok lets hear some thoughts on this. The bulk density of subject #1 came out to 3.490291262135922. :D :D :D

Off to test my others!

#8 rockhunter1620

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:44 PM

A bulk density test wont help. stoney chondrites vary in compostion on a very large scale. The only way to know fer sure is to cut it or sand it, (use aluminum oxide sandpapers only,NEVER use a file, if it is a meteorite, a file will contaminate the specimen), sand a window into one side, metal blebs (that test positive fer Fe/Ni) along with chondrules will guaranty it fell from space and possibly warrant having a thin section removed fer petrogaphic analysis. If you possess more than 20gm. a complete compositional analysis can be done, but fee's are charged and universities are back-logged. And only a university's analysis can provide official classification and a posting on the "Met-Bull". And none of these fellers on here taught me ALL this, the've helped with lots of bits and pieces, but I've had to learn most of what I know on my own! (and NOT by watchin Steve and Geoff on TV, those guys have a TV "show", they entertain,NOT teach!)
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#9 Dream Nugget

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:55 PM

Thanks Rock Hunter! I was thinking about sanding a window to check but I am nervous about wrecking them, it took so long to actually find them that I am weary of messing them up or ruining them. I should pick up a nickel allergy test kit too if I do cut or sand them? The first rock is about 71 gm and the second is 34 gm. I should have included a dime in the pictures for size comparison.

How about cutting them with a wet diamond blade tile saw? Are they big enough to cut or should I sand them?

#10 Mikestang

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:35 PM

I don't see any evidence of fusion crust, regmaglypts, or anything on the exterior that looks like a meteorite. They display no outwards appearance of being a meteorite, they have the wrong surface texture and features. One appears pourous, or at least has holes that do not appear on meteorites. They all appear terrestrially weathered, rounded by water and/or wind.

Meteorites are cold when they land on the earth, so if your grandpa saw if "sizzling" in the water it's more evidence that it was not a meteorite. You say it looks like meteorites with no fusion crust? A freshly fallen meteorite will have spectacularly fresh fusion crust! Always, 100% of the time. You have to understand that there are literally thousands of stories like your grandfathers and they are never meteorites. Nininger's accounts of how faulty eye witness accounts are best documented in Find a Falling Star.

Your take on streak tests is wrong. They are a scientific test that yield various colors depending on the composition of the stone; they are not a "pass" or "fail" test. "No color" does not mean pass or fail, it means you have a mineral that leaves no streak, or it is harder that the material you are streaking it on. Seeing as you did not grind a window into any of your stones prior to doing the test is another indication of your misunderstanding of this tool. You need to streak the inside of the stone, not it's exterior.

Nickel allergy tests are not accurate enough to be worth anything as far as meteorites are considered.
Everywhere I go I see the same rocks.

#11 rockhunter1620

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:46 AM

Sorry Dream Nugget, Mike's right, you've got there small water worn cobbles, limestone and basalt probably. And you have'nt clairified what you mean by "magnetic", do they act like frig magnets and pick up or stick to anything iron or do they stick to a magnet and the others not? #1 & # 4 look like iron rich baslts, They would stick to a magnet. #'s2, 3, 5, & 6 look like limestone. But, some limestones do have iron in them,( sometimes in the form of "pyrite") Minnesota, like michigan, is the lands of glacial deposits composed of both, course and fine tills. 12-15 thousand yrs. ago, where we both live, was in fact, lying beneath 1-3 miles of ice. Ice that was constantly flowing, on the move. And bringing with it so much dirt, gravel, rocks, and boulders, you could not even imagine. as far as yer grandpa seein a fall, that would have been seen fer miles as Mike has stated, and would have been reported in the news, even back in grandpa's day. We had in Michigan a witnessed fall in 1899 over Allegen, Mi. One 62lb. H-5 chondrite was recovered, after it was found,some locals chipped pieces from it b'fore it was turned over to a science guy. 98% of all strange lookin rocks found on the surface are "leaverites", 2 & 9/10'ths% are "meteorwrongs", 2/10ths. are Meteorites. Oh, and one last thing, sanding a window on the side of a meteorite does not wreck it or decrease it's value, example;gold Basin, L-4 common chondrite fragment, worth only 50 cents- 2 bucks a gram. Sand a window on one side to expose it's interior to reveal metal & condrules, now you might git $3. per gram cause it's had some work done to it, some effort and time has been put into it. But don't give up! keep lookin down, do bunch more readin and learnin, lookin, learnin and readin! Good luck!.....RH
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#12 Dream Nugget

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:14 AM

I'm still thinking at least #1 and #2 are meteorites. I think these ones are highly weathered. Next I'm thinking I'm gonna cut them open and see what's inside. Under a loupe these are even more convincing.

Ok I did not know it was a streak from inside test thanks!

My grandpas stone landed in water I think that broke all the fusion crust off with the cool down. I haven't seen the stone for about 18 years but iirc it was greyish with rounds spots all over. I don't know why it was sizzling in the water but I was recently reading about a small meteorite that came to earth at 50 times the regular speed. Maybe that would heat them up? The farmers have all the luck I tell ya! A farmer 6 miles from my home pulled a 2lb iron meteorite out of his field, and another guy about 8 miles away from my home dug up a 138lb iron meteorite with his backhoe.

Thoughts on wet tile saw cutting?

#13 Dream Nugget

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:50 AM

If you guys could see them, stone 1 and 2 are brothers exactly the same looking so since your saying 1 and 2 look like different kinds of rocks I don't think my pictures are doing justice. Should I cut them and put inside pictures up?

Thanks for all the help!

Also these stones do have a black cracked leather looking crust. The crust is falling off on some corners and it's got whitish spots and red spots under the crust looking through a loupe.

#14 Dream Nugget

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:27 AM

The magnet question, magnets stick to them I don't think they will stick to straight iron but I guess I haven't checked. They were sitting right next to an iron hinge that my magnets kept locking too and the rocks had no attraction.

By the way I won't give up on looking down. I've been collecting shoe boxes full of agates for years. I look for gold and meteorites while I hunt the agates, kind of a bonus.

#15 Dream Nugget

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:35 AM

Here's a good read on the meteorites being hot or cold when landing on earth. Since there have been very few who have picked them up right after hitting the ground it's kind of an unknown.

Are meteorites hot or cold when they hit Earth?
Movies always depict meteors as flaming balls of fire, streaking across the sky, and igniting anything they touch after they reach the earth...Is this true? I know that they get hot as they enter our atmosphere, but I also know that it is pretty cold in space, so they start out with quite a chill. Do meteors really get hot enough to keep them flaming all the way to the ground? If a meteor fell at my feet, could I touch it? Would it be cold or hot?

This is a good question, and one that we really don't have a great answer for. It's true that the chunks of rock and/or ice that form meteorites have been travelling through space for at least millions of years, and are therefore very cold when they begin their descent through our atmosphere. As they hit the atmosphere, the outside of the rock begins to heat up (forming the "fusion crust" on the meteorite). The hot outside begins to ablate (or be stripped off), which removes heat. The meteorite falls through the atmosphere in seconds, so for larger rocks, only the outside part has time to be heated. So the question is: When they hit, are they still cold because the hot parts of the rock were removed via ablation, or does the outside manage to get hot enough to burn things?

Unfortunately, there really aren't very many meteors that are picked up directly after they've fallen, so it's hard to do good statistics on which ones are hot or cold. So far it seems that some of each have been found. For example, this FAQ lists reports of meteorites (compiled by Don Blakeslee of Wichita State University) that have been touched soon after they fell, and some people reported that the rock was hot, some that it was warm, and some that there was frost on the outside! These reports are all of a qualitative nature, usually based on the testimony of a small number of people.

We certainly don't have big fires starting when meteorites hit Earth, so although they may singe grass or burn someone, they definitly don't hit the ground as a flaming fireball, the way you sometimes see it depicted in movies.

Many astronomers believe that small rocks hitting the ground should not be hot. In a Science@NASA article about the recent fireball over Pennsylvania, written by Tony Phillips, the planetary scientist Don Yeomans is quoted as saying,"Rocky asteroids are poor conductors of heat. Their central regions remain cool even as the hot outer layers are ablated away... Small rocky meteorites found immediately after landing will not be hot to the touch."

In their meteorite FAQ, the American Meteor Society says "The ablation process, which occurs over the majority of the meteorite's path, is a very efficient heat removal method, and was effectively copied for use during the early manned space flights for re-entry into the atmosphere. During the final free-fall portion of their flight, meteorites undergo very little frictional heating, and probably reach the ground at only slightly above ambient temperature." However, they point out that there really aren't many reports, and those we have are often "prone to hearsay".

So, in summary, we don't really know what temperature meteorites are when they fall. The problem is that there really isn't much quantitative data to base an answer on! However, many astronomers believe that small meteorites should be barely warm, or even cool when they hit the ground. The temperature probably varies depending on the size and composition of the original rock. For example, some materials might ablate more efficiently than others, or conduct the heat better. It's an interesting question, though, and one I wish we had a better answer to!

Very interesting , I'm throwing my bet on my gramps being 100% truthful. Rocks don't just come falling into lakes burning hot from the next town over especially way out in the country.

#16 Mikestang

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 10:13 AM

My grandpas stone landed in water I think that broke all the fusion crust off with the cool down.

Impossible, sorry, that does not/will not/cannot happen (and I had a feeling that was what you were going to come back with). Post up a picture if you can, and if it's a freshly fallen meteorite just picked up we'll know straight away. But the old "I saw this fall out of the sky and it landed over there and I picked it up" story is always the same and never a meteorite. Nothing against your grandpa, I'm not saying he's lying, just mistaken about what he has.

Here's a good read on the meteorites being hot or cold when landing on earth

You gave no reference from where you pulled that text, but it is well known that meteorites are cold or cool by the time they land. You text says that meteorites "singe grass or burn someone". No they don't, sorry. Space is cold, the upper atmosphere is cold, and meteoroids pass through the atmosphere briefly, heating only the exterior few millimeters.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but enthusiam does not make terrestrial rocks turn into meteorites. And all sorts of things come falling out of the sky, or appear to, and have no reasonable explanation so people assume they are meteorites. I can't say what something always is, but I like to think I'm pretty good at noting what it isn't, I've been looking at meteorites for almost 30 years. I had a rock in my collection that I thought was a meteorite for 20 years, only to learn that it wasn't. It sucks, I know, but it is what it is.

How many real meteorites have you seen, held, looked at under a loupe, and studied? I've looked at tens of thousands and still can't tell sometimes, but your rocks clearly appear to be terrestrial, probably with some sort of iron ore in them (goethite or limonite or some other similar compounds). Unfortunately Minnesota is not a very meteorite friendly terrestrial environment, due not only to the historic glaciation mentioned above, but also due to the rain and snowfall that occur every year - meteorites don't last long in wet conditions like that and that's why there's only 8 reported finds for the whole state. Those farmers who believe to have found meteorites in their fields should have a meteorite scientist look at them, the last reported find in MN was back in the 50's and was made by a farmer with a plow. Keep at it, though, hopefully you can make find #9.
Everywhere I go I see the same rocks.

#17 Dream Nugget

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:26 PM

http://astrobob.area...pond-in-canada/

How did these meteorites embed themselves in this frozen pond if they weren't hot when they hit?

#18 Mikestang

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:53 PM

I did not click your link, but I bet you are talking about Tagish Lake? The meteorites are black, they absorbed sunlight as they sat there on the surface, heated up, and melted the ice enough to imbed themselves.

Edit - clicked your link and that was to the Buzzard Coulee fall. The first find was, indeed, made on a small frozen lake. Google 'tagish lake meteorite' for some even better images of meteorites burrowing into ice.
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#19 Desertsunburn

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:18 PM

Dream Nugget,

You seem to be doing everything right, sort of. This is good because you are trying to determine what you have.

The bulk density test is a good test for chondrites and not to mis-lead anyone, I've done many Bulk Density tests on several different flavors of chondrites and they ALL fell within the area that they were suppose to be. If anyone disagrees with this, can you tell me exactly which meteorite fails a bulk density test??? I'd really love to see this new science and test it myself!
It is a fundamental test of all meteorites and the newest, Sutter's Mill, certainly was measured as part of the scientific studies. In fact, Adam Hupe was there in one of the labs while it happened and took pictures of the process!


Okay, here is what I "see"... I do not see meteorites in your pictures. But I really want to encourage you to do ALL the tests. We all go through this at some point in time. And worst case it was fun and interesting to do!

Based on your tests as you have stated:

1. Magnetic. Yes

2. Bulk Density ~3.4 Okay for some chondrites. Hematite or magnetite would be over 5 as hinted previously.

3. Streak, do it again in a clean windowed area, not on the surface of the specimen. What color do you get? Note, many people think this is ruling in or ruling out a meteorite. IT's NOT...do not know why that is so hard to understand. It is a mineral test

4. Window, Need to create a window or cut the rock. A diamond saw is fine, use distilled water for coolant and go slow as to not distort or "burn" in the insides. Take a good picture of the window and post it. Do you see metal flecks? Do you see chondrules?

Also, stick to on specimen at a time to not confuse issues.

So, go from there and let's see what we come up with!


In regards to the lake and ice.....ever see a duck stuck in the ice? If a rock sits on ice, it will heat and sink into the ice a bit during a warm day and freeze at night.
The odds of a steaming meteorite...just on the ground... has odds worse than winning the lottery! You stand a better chance of being killed by a deer!
Do you know how cold it is at 30km up in our atmosphere?

Kind Regards!

Jim

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#20 Dream Nugget

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:44 PM

Thanks Jim! I will get on that stuff. Just like you said I'm having fun with this whole deal, its just an extra hobby for me but I sure would like to have a rock I found that I could say for sure came from SPACE!

Mike I know these rocks very well probably are not meteorites, but my grandpas I'm pretty sure is. He is as straight forward as they come. I think there must be a way for these rocks to come down hot. Maybe if they are going 50 times faster than usual. How long are they in our atmosphere? I went over the story with him on the phone and like you guys said he didn't see it, he heard a splash right in front of him as he was sitting around the back of the house in front of the lake having a fire. He hopped up to see what the heck it was because he heard it cooling down. I will get pictures of that rock, he said he has it still. Why would he keep it? He is a multi-millionaire he could buy one if he wanted one. He also is a super clean type person so to bring a rock in the house to keep for sure wasn't on his to do list, my grandma would have a fit. But hey maybe it was a boeing bomb after all ;) (Joe dirts meteorite)

Thanks to everyone posting in this thread, I'm having a hoot with this this whole deal! I may just have to purchase a space rock to see/feel what they really look like so I don't miss one if I ever run across one.




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