[Paleface]

Goldfinger,

In answer to your questions about the Kingman area turquoise.
"Quote"
Hi Jim:
I had no idea the turquoise from Kingman came from a pit mine. I had always got the impression there were a series of small mines in which it was found. I guess I better forget about searching through the dumps then.

I remember that turquoise boom you refer to. If I'm not mistaken I think that was in the seventies. Prices were crazy back then. Rough turquoise was selling for $50.00 an ounce or more. Yeah- I can imagine you were busy back then.

I have seen turquoise from Kingman but can you tell me which type is more predominant? If you show me a piece that represents Kingman- would it be all blue or would it have the black spider web matrix? Can you cut most of the turquoise without any problems or does it need to be stablized?

Just out of curiousity- Is there a flea market in Kingman?
Steve
(Unquote)
Steve,

Back before the whole mountain became an open pit, there were a number of small mines and prospect holes, including the old indian workings. There are a couple old diggins in the area close to the current workings, that I have found a few real small pieces of green turquoise. Most all lower grades of turquoise will turn green in time.
The Kingman turquoise comes in a large variety of colors and grades. Most of the material is lower grade and is stabilized. Some of the material is real low grade and is treated. The higher grades are some of the best in the world, spiderweb with alot of pyrite matrix. The deep robins egg blue is much desired for inlay work.
Some of the prices now are even beating the old 1970`s prices.
I have included a link to the current operations at the mine. It will answer a whole lot of questions. I have quite a few pounds socked away for my future needs.
Take a tour of the mine at this web site....

http://colbaugh.net/pages/13/index.htm

There is a small flea market here in Kingman and also a small one in Golden Valley, don`t know if they are open on week days.

Jim

[Goldfinger]

Jim:

Thanks for all the info. :thumbsupanim I saw an ad in the Lapidary Journal about 3-4 years ago from Colbaugh and tried to contact them by phone. I never could get a hold of anyone and just gave up. At the time - they didn't list an Email address or even have a website.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there concerning turquoise these days. Can you explain the difference between treated turquoise and stabilized turquoise? :grr01: :grr01:

Steve

[Paleface]

Steve,

All of the treatment plants or home cookers out there, use different formulas.
Stabilization of lower grades of turquoise is simply, just a hardening process.
This is done with polyester or acrylic plastics. Formulas are a guarded secret.
Treated turquoise has been color enhanced and may have also been hardened.
Reconstituted turquoise is made from powdered turguoise that has been mixed with a plastic and made into brick form, sometimes pyrite and moly is added to the mixing bowl to create inclusions.
Most turquoise cabachons are backed with Devcon (liquid steel) for strength. :ninja: Depending on the price per carat, this can add quite a bit to the price of the cab.
My personal preference of all the turquoise, is the stabilized. It is easy to work with and holds up to the elements quite well. Prince Enterprizes stabilized the Kingman chalky material better than anyone in the business, they also made the best reconstituted No. 8 spiderweb looking brick that I have ever seen. They are no longer in business. :olddude: Harold Prince lives in Meadview, (King Tut placer area), he invented one of the best bead drilling jigs in the business.
As too misinformation about turquoise, I have always said that it is wise to know your source. Indian made -- , that is how I got my nick-name. The indian
silversmiths that bought turquoise cabs from me, called me the Paleface indian. The following link might answer more of your turquoise questions.

http://www.ganoksin....11/msg00121.htm

Jim

This post has been edited by Paleface: 21 January 2006 - 11:35 AM

[larense]

Hola Palaface. Having read your complete information and great experience on the turquoise stone, we need some help from you in identifying some little green stone we have found. ¿ Do they looks like turquoise ?. We will post two pictures. Have a look , please.

Saludos,

larense

[larense]

Here is the other one.

larense

[Paleface]

larense,

I am by no means an authority on turquoise, most of what we used in our turquoise business, came from the Kingman open pit mine, which includes Ithaca Peak and Turquoise Mountain. This mine produces almost every color shade of turquoise that you will ever see. I :wub: the Turquoise Mountain blue green ceremonial webbed material, still have about 10 lbs of it.
Pictures are hard to identify something with, I think what you have is in fact turquoise On the other hand, a couple of those specimens show a waxy lustre which is characteristic of Variscite, varisite ,varicite :???: ..... I have cut and polished some Nevada Variscite that resembles your material. Look this web site over, it is one of the best that I have seen on turquoise.

http://www.durangosi...quoisemines.htm

My
Jim

[Goldfinger]

Jim:

Thanks for the two great links on turquoise. :thumbsupanim :thumbsupanim :thumbsupanim

Steve

[larense]

Hola again , Palaface. OK, we would kindly ask you one more time , to tell us if the beads in this necklace seems to be turquoise stone. Thanks in advance.


larense

[Reno Chris]

Larense:

Turquoise comes in shades of green and blue, variscite a closely related mineral comes in shades of green to sometimes light blue, Chrysocolla comes in shades of blues to greens, other related minerals like Chalcosiderite and Faustite are shades of green and look similar to turquoise.

Bottom line is that its just impossible to tell by looking. The only way to know for sure is to have it crushed and analysized chemically - then based on chemistry, you can know what your stone was before it was distroyed.

Could your material be turquoise? - its a definete maybe!

Here is some turquoise from a mine I am involved in. Look at all the colors, all are turquoise!

Chris

[Bill Southern]

Chris those are some beautifule cabs! Thanks for posting them...wow!

Bill

[bigrex]

I agree with Reno Chris, it could even be an apple green form of chalcedony called Chrysophrase, which is colored from nickel impurities.

[Paleface]

larense,

As was stated before, material like that is hard to identify by looking at a picture, and as Chris stated, the only true way of finding out is to have the material chemically analized.
The 3 mentioned possibilities are Chrysophrase 6.5 to 7 hardness, Variscite 3.5 to 5 hardness and turquoise 5 to 6 hardness. I believe that most of the stones in your necklace are somewhat soft and have changed color over a period of time due to handling and the elements. I also believe that the necklace has been re-strung. It looks to be somewhat old and crude. My guess would be turquoise if I was a betting man.. Just doesn`t look like variscite to me... Can you tell if that is pin-shell heishi with white clam or wood and white shell ?
Nice looking necklace.

My un-educated

Jim

[Goldfinger]

Hi Chris:

Thanks for posting those photos :thumbsupanim

Those are some great looking cabs. In a way- it's hard to believe the're all from the same mine. :blink: Such a disparity

Hope you do well in your turquoise venture. :)

Steve

[larense]

Hola Paleface, Reno Chris, bigrex and all . Actually, we send the specimen Atarigua to a geology lab. and they tell us it was ¿? TURMALINE.

Paleface. It is an old, very old one necklace, at least more than 500 years old, hand made by the old southamerican AJAGUA arawacan tribes; the black beads we don`t know what material is it, and the white discoidal beads are marine shell . And the green beads, we also think they may be turquoise or some may be variscite .

Thanks very much indeed for your orientation and advice. Finally we are sending a picture to you all,of a variety of stone and shell beads this old families groups hand worked.

Saludos,

larense

[Goldfinger]

Hi Jim:

You mentioned the Mineral Park copper mine in a previous post. Is this still a producing copper mine? :???: How does that work? Do they mine for other copper minerals - then shut down and contact Colbaugh when they come across turquoise? :huh: Or is the whole mine leased out to Colbaugh for strictly turquoise mining? :hmmmmm:

Steve

[Reno Chris]

larense:

Hola!
Hey I have been in a number of tourmaline mines and handled quite a bit of tourmaline over the years and I've never seen any tourmaline that looked anything like that. I think turquoise or variscite are much better guesses.

Chris

[montana]

In 1988 and 89 Construction was under way on the Bullhead city airport and the contractor needed a large quantity of large rough colorful boulders for rip rap along the drainage areas . They found a source on the giant mine waste dumps in the mineral mountain area. Apparently they purchased many truckloads of this waste material. The foreman on the job told me that the construction crew spent their lunch breaks chipping thin seams of low grade turquoise from some of these boulders. He showed me some of the peices and it was a greenish blue and fairly hard but not what I would really call gem grade . Access to those mine dumps isn't allowed as far as I know and is fenced off with plenty of no trespassing signs.---Bob

[larense]

larense:

Hola!
Hey I have been in a number of tourmaline mines and handled quite a bit of tourmaline over the years and I've never seen any tourmaline that looked anything like that. I think turquoise or variscite are much better guesses.

Chris

Hola Reno Chris. We agree with you.......but they gave me that results ......don`t know if occured a mix with another sample.....it was a DRX ( X rays difraction ) test......a destructive test..... we did not bother again with it......

Thanks for your experienced opinion.....it will be OK for us.

Saludos,

larense

[Paleface]

larense,

Fiqured that the necklace was old, wow, that is old and what a nice item to have in your collection. The string of random beads and fetishes is also quite neat, quite an assortment of different materials, let me guess a few.......Malachite, coral, puca, turquoise, pipestone, bone, various white shells, etc.....
I am quite surprised at the geology lab report on those 4 specimens that you pictured. So hard to tell from a picture, I thought that they looked quite opaque and several looked somewhat soft. I have been under the impression that turmaline, tourmaline is around 7 to 7.5 in hardness and is usually transparent.
Most of the turmaline that I have seen is of a crystalline nature and somewhat transparent. The opaque material is also of a crystalline nature. I totally agree with Chris, and am still betting on my first thoughts, turquoise or varascite.

Bob is correct about the large boulders with turquoise in them, Duval was in the habit of selling that material for some years, the Arizona Highway department was one of their customers, you can still find large boulders all the way from Hoover dam, on thru Kingman and on down to the Arizona, Calif. border. They were used to channel the washes under the highway. Many of them still have small stringers of turquoise in them. :grr01: Whole lotta work to get anything worth the effort.
Much of this material was hauled to the Bullhead area for different projects. Drive around Kingman and you can witness many yards with large Duval turquoise bearing boulders in them, great yard decor....

Jim

[larense]

Hola Paleface. We also agree with your opinion. Turmaline is crystalline and somewhat transparent......but of cryatalline nature......not the possibly turquoise or variscite we have that are opaque .
Anyway, thank you very much indeed for your interest.
Saludos ,

larense

[Bill Southern]

Paleface you just blow me away with you knowledge We are truly blessed to have you entrenched so firmly amongst us! :thumbsupanim

You too Chris, but you already know that ;)

Thanks, Bill

[Paleface]

Steve,

The Mineral park area has many old gold, silver and copper mines, however the (turquoise mountain, Ithica peak open pit copper mine is the only operation working. Duval Corp. started that open pit back in the early 60`s, they closed down some years ago and the mill was dismantled and sold for scrap. Copper, moly, silver, gold and I don`t know what else, was extracted back then. Bagdad Cypress ended up with the mine and they put in a leach system and have been leaching the dumps and part of the pit for quite a few years. Just within the last 2 years with the price of copper going up, they have expanded their operations to include actual mining of the pit again. This material is spread and large scale leaching is done to extract the copper. Any turquoise that is subjected to the acid that is used in the leaching, is pretty much ruined as a gemstone. I have been (rabbit hunting..... :rolleyes: ) on the dumps a few times down through the years and have seen some really nice material that was ruined by the acid that they spray on everything. No trespassing signs everywhere now..... :whaaaa: :(
Colbaugh works within the pit with the company, when they hit turquoise, they move to another part of the pit and allow Colbaugh to mine and remove as much turquoise as possible. He pays them so much per pound that he extracts. It is a win win situation for both companys. Colbaugh has a processing area in the pit that he hauls turquoise bearing aggregate to, this material is fed onto a conveyor belt where pickers remove the turquoise from the waste. He also has a crew that works the actual turquoise veins. The turquoise is transported to his plant where it is sorted and graded. The lower grades are then stabilized, etc , etc, and then on to the wholesale and retail markets.
Do hope that I have helped you with the Kingman turquoise story....

Jim

[pdeere]

Paleface
I'm with Bill on this. Have been to the library, hiked and drove all over checking into Kingman tourquoise and Oatman fire agate. Not that it wasn't interesting, but next time I'll just ask you. Learned more here by far.

Thanks
Paul

[Paleface]

Bill and Paul,

I thank you very much for your kind thoughts. Am sorry that I have to express myself by writing a book at times, just don`t seem to have the knack of answering a question or expressing an opinion in a couple words.... :huh:
There are so many members on this forum that give expert advice and opinions,
Reno Chris just blows me away with his vast knowledge, when he posts, I listen. The same goes for John B., I have learned so much by reading his posts, to me , he is the VLF meteorite and gold Guru, vast experience and knowledge. Bill`s advice on detecting is bar none, some of the best to be found anywhere. My GP3000 folder is clear full of advice and tips taken from your past posts.

This forum has what it takes to make a good forum, Great bunch of people that are not afraid to share their knowledge with those that are trying to learn. Very little controversy and nit picking, what little that does occur, is quickly nipped in the butt by one of the best forum moderators around.

Thanks for a great forum Bill, :thumbsupanim I think that all who post or :ninja: would agree.

Jim

[Goldfinger]

Hi all:

I'm certainly with Bill and Paul on this too- Thanks to Jim - who is our resident rock and mineral expert. to Chris Reno- our geology expert. Bill- our metal detecting expert. and John B- our meteorite expert. It's guy's like these that make the forum what it is. Since joining - I've learned a lot. :thumbsupanim

Jim-

Thanks for the story of Mineral Park.It's great that Cypress Bagdad is giving a concession to Colbaugh to extract tuquoise from the property. I shudder when I think of all the gems and minerals destroyed over the years by the mining companies. Off the top of my head - I can only think of perhaps five concessions given for specimens. It's too bad there aren't more companies like Cypress.

Steve

[Paleface]

Steve,

I talked with Colbaugh turquoise today as I was a little unsure as to the current owner of the Mineral Park mine, knew that Cypress had been the owner when I ran a trap line up through that canyon.. Had to have their permission. What I found out about the mine really surprised me, it had changed hands twice in the last few years. Equatorial Mining Ltd got it from Cypress and then Mercator Minerals Ltd acquired the mine, 6418 total acres involved. When I went through the Pit awhile back with a friend of mine that worked on the maintenance crew, I never even thought about it being owned by another company... The long range plans that Mercator has for the pit, are quite interesting. They plan to extract the silver and molybdenum as well as the copper. Most people that live around here are really unaware of all the activity being stirred up by the high metal prices.
Here are a couple links that should up date the Mineral Park Mine data.

http://press.arriven...php/643885.html

http://www.prnewswir...04232904&EDATE=

Jim
P.S. Not really an expert on anything, :blink: just happen to know a little bit about a whole lot of things, some more than others, some less.
Getting to be an expert on making those poppers though.. Got a large batch in the oven right now---I thank Big Jeff for that great recipe, have added a little jimmy dean hot sausage to the mix... from cleaning out the peppers. :)

[Bill Southern]

Hey Jim,

Would there just happen to be anywhere a bunch of us nuts could do a little collecting of ???? Even a fee place would be cool for a day

Bagdad for obsidian (Apache Tears) and blue jasper or ???? Could be a lame excuse for another small outing :grin:

Could be a fun time.

Bill

[bigrex]

According to those links it looks like there's over a billion pounds of copper in that mine! :o

ps paleface, I think I sort of share your dilemma of knowing a bit about alot (on a smaller scale I suppose) or at least thinking I do - if I was smarter maybe I would specialize. :*&$*(: LOL

[Paleface]

Bill,

I would think that the Burro creek area on Hwy 93 would be a decent rockhound
outing area. The area has quite an assortment of jasp-agates, there is some purple agate down there. The apache tears found down there are not the best in the world, but they have made many a rockhound happy. I found them very hard to final polish, don`t get me wrong--- they polish, but are not as pretty as some of those found over around the Superior , San Manuel area.... Has been quite a few years since I took my lapidary classes down there on field trips, do not know what condition the back roads would be in. There is a back loop that goes in at Nothing Arizona, crosses Burro creek and comes out on up towards Wickiup. Will have to be on the back burner for me for awhile....
I am gonna be layed up for awhile after this Knee surgery, want to get it back in good shape before attempting anything real strenuous. Am also looking at a possible pace maker if I don`t get this blood pressure under control. :(

Retta is one of our local knowlegable rock hounds, she has done a number of field trips. Sure would like to do a field trip to that gold patch she found, , dreaming... What a lucky gal. Think that she has been set up at the rock show at the Avi Casino for the past several weeks.


Jim

[Paleface]

bigrex,

Yes, there is a lot of copper in that mountain and also in the mountain just behind it that has not even been scratched. What surprises me is the fact that they don`t mention trying to extract the gold. I do not know much about milling, but would seem to me that once all those metals are in solution (they plan to extract the copper, moly and silver) it would be possible to salvage the gold values as well. I do know for a fact that there are gold values in that pit.

I read all your posts and you have a great deal of knowledge about gems and minerals. I have learned a few things from you. I don`t think I would want to be smarter and specialized, that would take the fun out of my :wacko: life. Probably how I screwed up my knee, trying to go so many different directions all at once.. :inocent: I find that when I need something, there is always something else covering it up... A cluttered life is never boring though.......

Jim